Religious characters cast in a poor light.

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Happy Demon
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Happy Demon » 26 Apr 2012, 20:05

Let me be as blunt as possible here.
I don't want anyone to quote this thread or it's content on any other forum or religious discussion, the content here requires context to be interpreted correctly and should remain where it's context is known.
Especially you Opcalypse, your behavior makes me suspect you're planning to use the content elsewhere, and I don't care if it's for good or bad, I don't want that to happen.

I don't like people twisting my words to make me look like a fool.
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Opcalypse » 27 Apr 2012, 01:35

Thanks of the vote of confidence Happy Demon. As for posting the content of this thread elsewhere, I can't see the purpose of that. Perhaps there is a nefarious use, but to be as blunt as you... it's beyond me. Perhaps you have given me too much credit.

As for Andalusi: Mecca is the CENTRAL point of your religion. You pray to it several times daily. Similarly the temple is the CENTRAL point of the Jewish faith. Without it, sacrifice cannot be made and God cannot be in residence within the Jewish state. Christianity (without getting funny with Catholicism) has NO central point. We carry our holy places around with us. You can desecrate all of the 'holy sites' in Jerusalem, the Vatican and elsewhere and yet our faith remains unphased. Just another aspect of how different Christianity is from other mainstream religions (though Zoroastrianism comes close in certain areas). My point then is keeping the Jewish temple from being rebuilt is the same as allowing infidels to level and control Mecca. It'd be a HUGE deal. All I'm asking for is some empathy toward your Jewish brothers.

The Alqsa mosque has tons of excavations beneath it of importance to the Jewish people. It is not the historic location of the temple. Even though the Islamic authorities allow some archaeological work to be done at Alqsa, note that they allow nothing of the sort under the Dome of the Rock right next door. To be honest, I suppose the Jews want the whole Temple mount back, but seeing as how Islam has a firm claim to the location as well I can't see that happening without a global war. I'm about done seeing war over religious ideologies, but who knows what the next generation will allow. It would be nice to see a compromise agreed upon that both sides could be happy with. Unfortunately, folks on both sides always want a little more... so I'm not sure if compromise will be a lasting solution...ever.

So the religious discussion brings me to sadness. The world sits in an unfortunate condition. Maybe a Pocalypse will come with zombies, robots and plant creatures to help us forget these silly squabbles and focus on better pursuits. Like Power-suits.
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Eldaran » 27 Apr 2012, 09:30

Yeah that's one of the reasons i like christianity... you can sit on the WC and pray to god... :lol:
Well, but i thought that Jerusalem was the "point" for christians? Hundreds of pilgrims, etc.. go there to pray every year.
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby bkbirge » 27 Apr 2012, 12:06

You guys might like this book, it covers recent throughts on why we tend to group ourselves into religions, political ideologies, etc. and defend them vehemently even in the face of proof of their particulars being wrong. It also makes the claim that religion is at least in part a survival mechanism driven by biology, an interesting concept for sure. Another interesting concept is that the groups themselves can almost be viewed as superorganisms with innate needs for survival...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Min ... 0307377903

I think that concept along with the reasons why we defend our positions so hard could be used in the Pocalypse story to great effect.
Andalusi
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Andalusi » 27 Apr 2012, 21:45

As for Andalusi: Mecca is the CENTRAL point of your religion. You pray to it several times daily. Similarly the temple is the CENTRAL point of the Jewish faith. Without it, sacrifice cannot be made and God cannot be in residence within the Jewish state. Christianity (without getting funny with Catholicism) has NO central point. We carry our holy places around with us. You can desecrate all of the 'holy sites' in Jerusalem, the Vatican and elsewhere and yet our faith remains unphased. Just another aspect of how different Christianity is from other mainstream religions (though Zoroastrianism comes close in certain areas). My point then is keeping the Jewish temple from being rebuilt is the same as allowing infidels to level and control Mecca. It'd be a HUGE deal. All I'm asking for is some empathy toward your Jewish brothers.


You sound like a Protestant. Many Catholics and Orthodox Christians - of all rites - would definitely place Golgotha and the Sepulchere as a central point of the Christian point. If you opt out of a tangible location, there is the sacred heart of Christ. You also betray a misunderstanding of how holy places are viewed in other religious traditions. The 'Kaabah' itself is not the dwelling place of God, but a focal point of worship. Whether it is destroyed or not, dosent matter (the Kaabah itself had been rebuilt several.) Also, religions operate on both a global and localized level. The grave of a saint - both in the Christian and Muslim traditions to take one instance - operates as a focal point for communal worship. Is it ok to defile such sites because, well, in your eyes (a non-adherent) deem them to be not central?

You then speak of the centrality of the Temple to Judaism. This is anything but true. Check the historical scholarship: Halakkic and Diasporic Law for a long time had adjusted itself to (1) the exile of Jewry from 'Judea' and 'Samaria' and (2) that the Temple and the Priesthood are dispensible. If anything, ORTHODOX Jews - both from the Aliyyah period (its interesting to note that Orthodox Judaism's support for the Zionist enterprise in Palestine is very recent) and those who refuse to bend to the 'new interpretations' of the Settler-Rabbi communities insist that it is simply not permissable to rebuild the Temple. So please, spare me the 'huge deal' gimmick. There is a persistant policy of Judification in Palestine proper with both Christian and Muslim sites either being levelled to the ground or converted to Jewish sites - a major Muslim cemetary (now, ironically, the designated site for a ''Tolerance Museum') in Jerusalem and the Patriarch Abraham's Grave - come to mind for instance.

You ask me for empathy for my Jewish brothers. I have all empathy towards those who dont adhere to Zionism - a modern racialist ideology that has corrupted Judaism - and those who dont undermine the rights of both Muslim and Christian Palestinians. Judaism in its own right is revered by our tradition as a divine one, and we share the same symbols and Prophetic figures, so please, dont attempt to paint it as a 'blind hatred.'

The Alqsa mosque has tons of excavations beneath it of importance to the Jewish people. It is not the historic location of the temple. Even though the Islamic authorities allow some archaeological work to be done at Alqsa, note that they allow nothing of the sort under the Dome of the Rock right next door. To be honest, I suppose the Jews want the whole Temple mount back, but seeing as how Islam has a firm claim to the location as well I can't see that happening without a global war. I'm about done seeing war over religious ideologies, but who knows what the next generation will allow. It would be nice to see a compromise agreed upon that both sides could be happy with. Unfortunately, folks on both sides always want a little more... so I'm not sure if compromise will be a lasting solution...ever.


I dont mind seeing the site shared at all, and there is no theological impediment to that. However, I object to the statement that 'folks on both sides want a little more' - the Israelis - and I suggest you read what the Israeli historians themselves have written, such as Illan Peppe and Morrison - are the main culprits for much of the problems in the region. Their insistance on continued settlement construction (now approach 240 active ones) which is universally condemned even by the United States, offering peace treaties (the so-called 'Missed Peace' of Camp David) which would have rendered Palestine into a series of Bantustans, its imposed regime of occupation that is turning the lives of countless people into misery, and its non-chalant and cavalier attitude towards International Law. Heh, look at the current government now - its as far to the Right as it can be, banning Arab citizens from holding even mourning events for the Nakba, demanding loyalty oaths, and tightening the lid on critical academic and media freedoms within Israel. The Israelis are not interested in peace, or at least, are interested in derailing it for as long as possible.
So the religious discussion brings me to sadness. The world sits in an unfortunate condition. Maybe a Pocalypse will come with zombies, robots and plant creatures to help us forget these silly squabbles and focus on better pursuits. Like Power-suits.


They are far from silly, but very serious. I can now move on.
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Opcalypse » 28 Apr 2012, 03:23

Andalusi,

I understand your point of view. As I give little value to any 'holy site', you will find I am no friend to Zionists. As for the current Israeli policy on palistinians, it is a secular one. A religious one would clear the area, possibly violently.. hopefully peacefully, and be done with it. The current situation is one the secular government wants to maintain. Palestinians offer a source of low wage workers and to a degree Israeli economics depends on it, much like US economics depends on cheap mexican labor. Both are dire evils in my eyes. Ironically both are championed from a 'religious right' that is greedy and selfish... not at all encompassing the virtues of the religions they claim to follow. For the record, I'm still a registered Republican... the critique comes from one within the very structure that champions these evils.

I challenge you with this thought. You are clearly unhappy with the current actions of the Jewish faith. Let me encourage you that Islam is in no danger from Judaism in any way, shape or form. The only area under contest is the land of Israel itself, which has no desire to grow past it's ancient boundaries (the return of the Sinai would serve as a strong evidence). Yet there remains a struggle and an unhappiness in your words. Meditate on the truth that unhappiness comes from an unbalance within and not from the circumstances without.

No scripture, no religious dogma... just a truth. Do with it what you will. For those that believe in a creator-God, may he bless you.

Selah.
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Moth
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Moth » 28 Apr 2012, 08:40

Saw a few things I'd like to contest/comment on.

Opcalypse wrote:As for the rebellious son... I'm shocked that his Emo attitude survived the apocalypse. A harsh reality will shock a teen-ager out of angst faster than you can say 'Justin Beiber'. Also, any person who's been forced to fish for his food knows that any amount of skill can't help you when the fish aren't biting... and would be thankful for the catch. Maybe not thankful to a deity, but also not egotistical enough to claim the success without at least luck or nature's intervention.


I don't see how he was being "emo," really. Frustrated by his overbearing father, yes. But between the Pocalypse and his father acting like a jerk, I'd say he has a right to be frustrated. But on the other hand, one could say I'm biased, considering I've had some of the same exact thoughts he's having.

I think you read too much into what he said. Phillip's exact words were, "God didn't catch those fish! I did!" He wasn't being egotistical and claiming his skill was what caught the fish. He was making a point to his father, who had just said something along the lines of, "You don't deserve the food God has given you." As far as I can tell, he meant exactly what he said: God didn't catch those fish. He did.

Opcalypse wrote:Also, the Father figure. I can't imagine any Father 'giving up' on his son just because he's having a crisis of faith. This guy is an a-hole with some religious trappings, not a person of faith. It would be nice to see a strong father figure pop up sometime. Media just seems determined to depict fathers as Homer Simpsons and Peter Griffins.


Oh, I can imagine a father giving up on his son for a lot less than a crisis of faith. Nothing's impossible when you're dealing with someone who uses religion to justify things. That being said, I agree completely. That guy is a first-rate jerkwad and needs to be smacked upside the head -.-;;

And then there's the whole "dead mother" trope, which I see used so often it's become part of what I expect from a series. If there isn't at least one dead mom in any given series, they're just not trying hard enough xD

Opcalypse wrote:Lastly, I'd love to see some other religions depicted besides the usual Christianity. How would a Buddhist react to the apocalypse and how would it mesh with his theology? What about a Jew or a Muslim? How about Native Americans?


That'd be pretty cool. Although looking at a bunch of religious characters' reactions to the Pocalypse back-to-back could get tedious. Some religion can be interesting, but too much of it just gets irritating.
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Happy Demon
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Happy Demon » 28 Apr 2012, 14:18

You made this thread to cast other Religions in a bad light.

You're now telling how you think Andalusi's religion works, and saying what you think must be the truth.
Either you're a troll or just foolish, since you're casting another religion in a poor light (the irony is so thick it has lunar gravity).

I actually planned to tear your argument apart from the moment I first saw this thread.

Since someone else already started, let me say this.
If I burned every church in the world (the Stavkirke (church made entirely out of wood) would be the easiest) along with every single Bible in the world, then Christianity would start to fall apart, until they made another Bible.
Heck, if I took it a step further and burned every evidence of the existence of any biblical figures, then Christianity would be really screwed.
It's extreme, but if WW3 happens because of Christians, I'm so going to do it, Christians has already caused WW2.
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Eldaran » 28 Apr 2012, 17:40

And here i "stand" and thought that a little Austrian named Hitler and a whole bunch of crazies started WWII...
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Re: Religious characters cast in a poor light.

Postby Happy Demon » 28 Apr 2012, 23:06

Last time I checked Hitler was Christian.
And even then, the war would have been shorter if the Allied forces had attacked Germany once it conquered Poland.
I'm the Forum Demon, amongst the most active members on the Forum.

I participated in the Pocalypse RP in the active time, when all Moderators and Admins were active.

Nosebleeds are f***ing annoying!

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